Your Relationship With Money
Why is our relationship with money so mysterious? In the inaugural episode of the Family Money Podcast, I'm joined by my younger sister, Yolanda Christenson, for a discussion about money and our relationship with it.
For most of us, we have an emotional reaction to money--spending it, investing it, or planning for retirement. In this episode, we'll clear the noise and get to the heart of the relationship we have with money.
Episode Highlights:
05:16 - Why money scares us
07:08 - Are there generational differences when it comes to money?
10:16 - How money is talked about in a typical family
13:23 - Why younger generations are less involved in family businesses
17:10 - Are younger generations willing to have the conversation about family business?
19:50 - Decision science and Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke
22:31 - How to find a “truth partner”
23:46 - Our self-talk
Resources/Links Mentioned in this Episode:
The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel
Sponsors: First Generation Advisors & First Generation Financial
Transcript
DISCLAIMER: This transcript is automatically generated by Descript. Please excuse any errors.
[00:00:00] Yolanda Christianson: [00:00:00] I don't think you're going to get authentic answers because, money, we're not just talking about a thing. We're talking about something that influences so many people's feelings, the, how they show, how they're accepted by others, for instance.
[00:00:22] Rick Thomas: [00:00:22] Greetings everyone. I'm really pleased to introduce my guest today for a couple of reasons. First, this is the very first episode of season one of the Family Money Podcast. And I'm starting out with a topic you wouldn't normally think of in the consulting and financial planning world, "your relationship with money."
[00:00:41] I'll get into the why a bit in the discussion with the guest, [00:00:45] but that leads me to the second reason I'm excited to talk about this subject. Because when I was thinking about who would be the best person to interview on this topic, there was no better person to consider than my one and only younger sister, Yolanda Christenson.
[00:00:59] Yolanda is a licensed marriage and family therapist practicing in Seattle, Washington. And true to form for all of us Thomas' who tend to have varied and wide ranging career paths. After a successful career in accounting and financial management, Yolanda pursued a master's degree in organizational design, launching a new career for herself and personal coaching and organizational development.
[00:01:21] Working with high-tech firms, finance teams, and C-suite leadership, pursuing culture change and leadership development. I might also add that she joined me in [00:01:30] my first consulting business in 2005, when I was first venturing into consulting. Yolanda's experiences in doing this work ultimately led to a desire to work with individuals at a more personal level.
[00:01:42] And she went back to school to earn her second master's degree. This time in family therapy, to work with family systems from another perspective. This perspective is best thought of as two large circles on a Venn diagram where organizational systems is one circle and family systems is the other. And the overlap, the two circles represents the individual.
[00:02:04] Hopefully this provides a useful framework when listening to this fascinating conversation and considering how it might apply in your situation or one you're familiar with. I had [00:02:15] truly loved this conversation and I'm sure you'll find it interesting as well.
[00:02:18]
[00:02:18] Welcome, Yolanda, to the Family Money Podcast. And by the way, this is the inaugural podcast, for the Family Money Podcast. And so as I mentioned in the introduction, we're going to start with the topic your "relationship with money" and of all the topics that I could have chosen to kickoff this podcast.
[00:02:41] This is the one that kept coming back to me because in a way it's probably the most mysterious.
[00:02:49] Yolanda Christianson: [00:02:49] For sure.
[00:02:50]Rick Thomas: [00:02:50] A lot of the other topics that I'll eventually touch on throughout the entire arc of this podcast, a lot of it's going to be kind of head stuff, [00:03:00] very technical money, programmatic type of things, retirement plans.
[00:03:07] But this one is clearly down, it goes about 18 inches down from the head, into the heart. And like I said, there's a lot of mystery there and as a way to kick this off, I'll, I'll start with my own mystery. And as I'd mentioned when we were kind of pre-briefing what we wanted to talk about today.
[00:03:28]I had my own experience about eight years ago. We were switching financial advisors. And so I was meeting with the new financial advisory team that we were going to work with and in talking about our investment [00:03:45] portfolio and what it had done over the prior 15 to 20 years, I found myself getting really emotional.
[00:03:53] Yolanda Christianson: [00:03:53] Yeah,
[00:03:54] Rick Thomas: [00:03:54] and I teared up. And I was having a kaleidoscope of emotions, but I think one of the things I was left with was kind of the sense of shame around it. And I have to say I haven't quite fully unpacked that. And by the way, I'm not going to do that.
[00:04:17] Yolanda Christianson: [00:04:17] You're absolutely right. We're not going to do that.
[00:04:19] Rick Thomas: [00:04:19] Selective audience can take us a big sigh of relief that they're not going to hear the host totally vomit all over the podcast about his issues [00:04:30] with money . But needless to say, I eventually became a certified as a financial advisor and I began to see this reaction also in a lot of my clients, not quite half of them. One of the spouses or partners in the relationship would have this very emotional reaction to money.
[00:04:52] Yolanda Christianson: [00:04:52] Yeah.
[00:04:53] Rick Thomas: [00:04:53] And it's always kind of laying there waiting to be explored in terms of more from a macro point of view.
[00:05:00]What is this about? What's going on here?
[00:05:02] Yolanda Christianson: [00:05:02] Yeah.
[00:05:03] Rick Thomas: [00:05:03] I couldn't think of a better person than you to help, to help explore this topic. So maybe as a just leave it at those two data points for jumping [00:05:15] off, what comes to mind for you?
[00:05:16] Yolanda Christianson: [00:05:16] Well, so thanks for having me. And I love the topic. I think it's a fantastic topic to explore. When I'm working with clients, we often divide a lot of what we talk about over five things, you know, power, trust, money, love, sex. And Money. It's not that these things are necessarily different from each other. It's just what shows up in each of those categories.
[00:05:40] And when we're talking about money and your experience of having an emotional reaction, I think what it really is speaking to is that we bring our whole selves to things in ways that sometimes we don't understand, because we think it should just be a cognitive process. Right. I'm talking about money, talking about my investments, I'm planning, I'm doing what I need to do.
[00:05:57] I'm taking care of things. Yet, when [00:06:00] we're talking about it, there's this sense of self that gets challenged in so many ways. And it's the sense of self that scares us, because what if we're wrong? What if we're not doing it right? What if we're not showing up the way that we thought we were supposed to, or what if it isn't meeting what we thought we were supposed to be, which is even harder, you know?
[00:06:17] So there's a lot of things that come up that we work really hard to keep suppressed. And money is one of the topics that can really just ignite that so quickly that it can feel as if we're spinning a bit out of control on the conversation.
[00:06:32] Absolutely. And, and, and I'll add one other layer to this.
[00:06:36] Rick Thomas: [00:06:36] I mean, it, it's not as though that wouldn't be enough in isolation...
[00:06:41] Yolanda Christianson: [00:06:41] Right.
[00:06:41] Rick Thomas: [00:06:41] But this doesn't happen in isolation. Again, this is the Family [00:06:45] Money Podcast. This is about family units and family businesses. And so it gets layered in there trying to interpret, let's say the parents' generation in terms of their reaction, which is likely very different than ours. And then even perhaps what we're projecting onto our children.
[00:07:07] Yolanda Christianson: [00:07:07] Absolutely.
[00:07:08] Rick Thomas: [00:07:08] And, as you've kind of explored this in your work, is there any generational markers that you've noticed. In terms of how the parent generation is responded to this relative to our generation and relative to now kids you see coming up.
[00:07:25] Yolanda Christianson: [00:07:25] Yeah. Well, the short answer is yes. And I'd put an [00:07:30] explicative in front of that, if I could . I'll keep this family-friendly if we will. But absolutely, I think that, in the simplest of terms, if we can use the comparison of how a family that we know, well, how two brothers responded to the depression, for instance, one took a very paranoid response of every penny, understandably, right? I mean, everything watching your world fall down around you, the terror that comes with everything that you've worked for being taken away and not knowing where the next thing's going to come from. You know, save a penny, we hear these stories all the time in the news of Oh, this homeless woman donated $7 million to the arts Institute of we, we have such a fascinating response to different events that happen [00:08:15] along the way at the timeline.
[00:08:16] Then you have the other brother who's like, well, it turns out it could all just go away anyway. Why not just ride the rails of this thing and see where it goes and enjoy my life. Right. And I might have a lot of carnage, but it's just an interesting response to the exact same environment. Right. In family therapy, we're often looking at the dynamics of how each person responds to what we think is the exact same system.
[00:08:41] And the system is the same, however, the behaviors are different and we're looking at how we each are responding to that system. So yes, absolutely.
[00:08:51]Rick Thomas: [00:08:51] Help define what you mean by system.
[00:08:53] Yolanda Christianson: [00:08:53] System, okay. So when we're looking at a family unit, we generally have authority [00:09:00] figures, parental figures, and then we have the children and then we might even have the involvement of the next generation of the grandparents involved.
[00:09:08] And when we're looking at a family, what we define as the system is who are all the people who are all the members. In an organization, it would be who are the stakeholders? Right. And who's influenced and being an under the, you know, who has power, who doesn't, what are the rules? What are the things that we're working with that have we named those things?
[00:09:27] There's the things that we see, let's say we go to an investment advisor and say, okay, I want to work on my portfolio. Who else is in that room? That nobody is seeing? For instance, the grandparents, what's the influence of what money looked like then that came down to that child, or the lack of grandparents, how that is influencing [00:09:45] that person, how they're thinking about money.
[00:09:46] There's a lot of people showing up in the room when you go to meet with investment advisor, they just don't see them. Yeah.
[00:09:51]Rick Thomas: [00:09:51] As you've observed this in your work , are there some common traits of let's say a journey to health in this regard that continue to show up.
[00:10:05]Yolanda Christianson: [00:10:05] Let me break down your question a little bit. There's ways in which we see health and how we talk about managing behaviors, because obviously money is just another substance.
[00:10:16] So that's a whole other topic of how we use things to define ourselves or abuse them to not feel who we are. Then there's the topic of the health of just, how is money talked about in the family? [00:10:30] And what was the story that was told to you? And what's the story that you want to be? So more of a coaching methodology of making intention lead to purpose.
[00:10:40] So where are you going?
[00:10:42]Rick Thomas: [00:10:42] Let's talk about the latter.
[00:10:44] Yolanda Christianson: [00:10:44] Okay. Okay. So This is a tough subject because we also have to look at the context of society, right? So are we talking about people who are resourced? Are we talking about people are unresourced. If we're talking about people who are resourced and you're seeing different family behaviors, especially, let's say in a family-owned business, right. You're really going to see this stuff fly and I think anybody listening who's part of that knows exactly how challenging that can be.
[00:11:11] Rick Thomas: [00:11:11] Yeah. The current movie title Knives Out comes to mind.
[00:11:13] Yolanda Christianson: [00:11:13] Yeah, [00:11:15] that's exactly right. So if we're talking about health, we're going to do our best to bring all those family stories out as to what has informed, what has shaped us, what is it? What are the rules that are feeling oppressive? Now are as important as the ones that are supporting us and making a plan around knowing how to bring our unconscious conscious so that we do our best to have a healthier relationship with it that isn't us projecting, as you said, or even worse projectiling, our family crap onto our, our finances .
[00:11:53]I'm curious, is it more likely that our peer [00:12:00] generation would be the ones driving to have this conversation or would it be the parents or what, what, anything that you've observed
[00:12:09] I wouldn't pin it to any particular generation, but more to say the ease of the conversation I think has come with each coming generation. Because other things are being talked about more openly than they used to be say 50 years ago, right? I mean, we can look at our own headlines to see how conversations have changed and what they would have been. I think that the comfort of future generations talking about money has everything to do with how the family talks about any topic. So it's going to be contextual to the family's [00:12:45] ability to have conversations about what is authoritarian versus collaborative.
[00:12:51] So if you have a parent structure, which was more likely early generations back, right, to be more about command and control. This is how you do it. This is the only way you do it. This is what our family stands for. And you either fit in that system or you don't.
[00:13:07]Versus a family that says, well, what do we value? Who do we support? What do we want to be in the world? What's our best, selves brought forward. And how does money fit into that? Okay. That's two entirely different conversations, right?
[00:13:23] Rick Thomas: [00:13:23] Yeah. And, I'll tell you if it really highlights a common issue that I hear [00:13:30] among my client base, certainly where there are multiple generations in the family business. And increasingly the next generation is, as the parents would describe it, less and less engaged or less interested in becoming involved or being part of the business. And yet, as I talk with this next generation, I find this tremendous sense of inquiry and discovery about what is meaningful to them?
[00:14:03] Yolanda Christianson: [00:14:03] Yes, exactly. Exactly.
[00:14:05]Rick Thomas: [00:14:05] And there's definitely tension there. Because again, whether it's the founding generation or the second gen, that's looking the handoff to the third [00:14:15] gen, they're scrambling in, how do they access in their, the next generation, their children, this level of interest in the business.
[00:14:27]I mean again, any, any thoughts around that with regard to this topic and are there perhaps threads that, for business owners that find themselves in this situation, are there threads that they could pull to begin to access that conversation with the kids?
[00:14:46] Yolanda Christianson: [00:14:46] I think it starts with yourself.
[00:14:47] How are you having that conversation with yourself? How did you come into relationship with money? What were you told by the generation before you? Did you inherit it? And it's something you didn't want? Have you ever explored your own reactions [00:15:00] to the role that you're in and how you got there?
[00:15:02] And then how are you then asking that question to the generations ahead of you? It's one thing to say something's facilitated, right? We're going to have a family meeting and we're going to talk about this. This is a huge topic. This is not going to be handled quickly in a facilitated meeting as much as I would love it to.
[00:15:21] I don't think you're going to get authentic answers because, money, we're not just talking about a thing. We're talking about something that influences so many people's feelings, the, how they show, how they're accepted by others, for instance .
[00:15:37] I'm going to do it to a small tangent here, but I'll tie this back to this.
[00:15:40] My work is focused on attachment and how people [00:15:45] experience caregiving early on how that influences, how they behave later in the world. There's thousands of studies on this, but the main seminal work that it came from was David Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth in studying monkeys and then looking at what became the strange situation back in the sixties of using what they could never do now it's unethical, but to put babies into situations where they were presented strangers and what happened. Without getting into that, you could go look that up on your own, there's millions of things online about it. But the point being that we developed a few different attachment styles and some of them that can be more challenging to work with when it comes to money is how we are then establishing emotional security in relationship and money is a relationship, okay?
[00:16:30] [00:16:29] So when we are looking at a family that says, okay, I want my future generations to be involved in this, yet I find them so disinterested. How is attachment showing up then in that relationship? Does the child feel an emotional security where they can have the conversation of I'm not sure I am interested or I don't know why I'm not interested, or I feel completely like a Boulder sitting on my chest when we talk about this, because I'm paralyzed by this.
[00:16:59]There's so many different reactions. I'm not sure my answers being helpful as much as I want to highlight that this is a huge, huge topic in that regard.
[00:17:10] Rick Thomas: [00:17:10] Right. So let's talk about, let's say, the [00:17:15] incoming generation. And if they are interested in having this conversation, but not finding any welcome by their parents to have this conversation, at least at this level and language that they feel would be to your point, authentic in discovering this.
[00:17:38]What do they do with that? And by the way, I want to throw out a quote that you used in our pre-brief on this that I keep coming back to, which is "your emotions are valid, but not always the truth. "
[00:17:51] Yolanda Christianson: [00:17:51] Correct.
[00:17:52] Rick Thomas: [00:17:52] So talk about that quote in beginning to answer the question.
[00:17:56]Yolanda Christianson: [00:17:56] I think that we have a lot of reactions to what [00:18:00] happens in our family, and it's such lightspeed fast reactivity that we're not always in a position to observe that what the triggering event, for instance, if it's to talk about money, like you've talked about here, all that it comes with and what it's loaded with and at the, at the heart of it is emotional security.
[00:18:21] So our emotions start to respond, we don't feel safe, we feel threatened or we feel criticized, that's a big one. We feel not enough, unvalued, too young, you name it. You can come up with other things. And from that, we make a truth. We make meaning of that and say, okay, then the truth must be that that's actually how they feel about me.
[00:18:41]When we're not evaluating that in this [00:18:45] question, the parent is having the exact same response. I'm worried about my kid. I want them to be safe. I don't want them to not have a good relationship with money. It needs to look like this because this is scary. So we've got two different attachment responses happening that then make it extremely challenging because we've made truth of that experience, and now we're battling truths. And that's what we have to go in after and say, and to your question, I would have to say, what's that family story about each other? And what's the story I'm telling myself. And is it possible that there's other truths here and is it scary to explore them?
[00:19:24] You bet! There's probably a lot on the line, right? But it's, it's a willingness [00:19:30] to challenge what truth and meaning that you've made. Whether it's being driven because of your emotional response to something, or is it...the flip side of that's true. You can also be too logical. Right. And we're looking for those two to come together to make a, a wise truth. Okay.
[00:19:50]Rick Thomas: [00:19:50] What's fascinating in hearing you talk through that. So a recent study of mine has been around decision science, how we make decisions and the emotions of decision-making. And one of the recent books that I read around this was the books titled Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke.
[00:20:11]First of all, a world champion poker player, as [00:20:15] well as her brother is. She wears a special wrist bracelet that they get from winning and all that's broadcast on ESPN. She also happens to have a PhD in psychology and had used her whole experience in decision-making around playing poker, in trying to understand the psychology of decision making emotions that get involved. And one of the things she talks about in her book, and it's a phenomenal book, very interesting read, is having a truth pod. Where you can vocalize just to things that you were talking about, these questions, what is the truth that I'm attaching myself to versus what [00:21:00] other truths might be out there.
[00:21:01] Right. And how important that is in winning a hand of poker, let alone having a conversation with whether it's your children or your parents about a really emotionally laden conversation around money. And having that truth pod or truth partner involved. So to that point , talk about, and that's just another word for having somebody else in the conversation.
[00:21:31] Yolanda Christianson: [00:21:31] Yeah.
[00:21:31]Rick Thomas: [00:21:31] What are ways to, if somebody wanted to explore this with a truth partner, what would they seek out? What would you advise somebody to seek out and finding a truth partner or having a truth pod?
[00:21:44]Yolanda Christianson: [00:21:44] There's [00:21:45] a reflective best-self exercise that I love, where you send out an email , which, these days it'd be a text, to eight people who know you in different arenas. So someone from your family, someone from work, someone from maybe a board that you're on, just as many different contexts as you can come up with. And ask them, what do you see about me? What do you think shows up as the three strongest traits that I have, and tell me a story about any one of them or all three, if you have time. And then you also asked two critics. This exercise has been done in a number of different ways, but this is my favorite. Ask two critics the same thing if they're willing, and you better be ready for what you're going to hear, but I think what it does is it gives you an initial [00:22:30] sort of, fairly brief exercise to reconcile how you think you're showing up in the world and how others experience you. Right? So we start with that as an easy way in to start having this conversation. Because if people aren't receiving you the way that you think you're showing up, that's the first place to start. There's no point in having conversations with others, if your own reality is not true, to yourself, right?
[00:22:57] So we always start with self and then from there, and we start building that community, you might find that people who reflect back to you, what they're saying makes a very easy choice about a couple of people who would be important to have in that center. You and I have talked before about having your [00:23:15] own board of trustees. That's a truth pod for sure.
[00:23:18] Rick Thomas: [00:23:18] It's interesting as you hear you say know thyself well, You said something along those lines, but the words came to mind for me, no thyself and it's still very sticky in the front of my mind right now, because , as you know, I recently completed a Vipassana retreat, which is a 10-day meditation retreat.
[00:23:39] And the very definition of the word Vipassana is to know thyself
[00:23:45] Yolanda Christianson: [00:23:45] yeah.
[00:23:46]Rick Thomas: [00:23:46] It's fascinating what we think we know about ourselves versus what actually comes up when we sit in silence, in this particular example. And I would imagine [00:24:00] that, in filtering through the feedback in this exercise you described, we began to learn things about ourselves that are not within our necessarily our conscious realm.
[00:24:13] Yolanda Christianson: [00:24:13] Right.
[00:24:13] Rick Thomas: [00:24:13] It's it's stuff that we think is just on autopilot and we don't see.
[00:24:18] Yolanda Christianson: [00:24:18] Right, right. And I would say majority of the people that I meet, the biggest truth they have in their head is incredible critic. It is the loudest, meanest, rudest being in there about you're doing it wrong, you're always doing it wrong, and you're not going to be enough.
[00:24:38] And so we're constantly responding. So there's that emotional security, right? We're responding to that voice. And there's a [00:24:45] lot of different psychological theory about where that voice comes from. I don't think it's as important about what the theory is in this, and forgive me for all the people who are rolling over right now, but it's understanding what it's doing to you.
[00:24:57]And how it's influencing those, getting to know yourself. What is the fear and what are the parts that we have to break off and give to other people about ourselves because we can't tolerate it? Right. And money is a perfect fuel for the fire. When there's parts of us that we keep having to break off and hand to others because we can't stand the way it makes us feel.
[00:25:19] We have to work through, I say, have to, it's a choice. Okay. But in my mind, if you really want to come to this as a whole person, it's [00:25:30] not to just look for the good things is to look for all the things without judgment. They're just the parts of us, you know, that make up this whole, and then the more that we can be in relationship with them, the more authentically we can show up in the world. And as we know, magical things happen when we get to that place.
[00:25:46]Rick Thomas: [00:25:46] There are so many different areas that I'm tempted to go with this, but I want to keep this within a reasonable length. Let me ask you this. Is, is there a particular aspect of this, that in, in kind of getting to a summary here that would be worth touching on.
[00:26:07]Yolanda Christianson: [00:26:07] In terms of the relationship with it and what you might want to explore? Again, I'm going to make the comparison and this is [00:26:15] saying more about me. Okay. Because to me, this is one in the same, right? This is me getting to know myself and what I feel is important in this. It's important for people, if they really want to explore this, just start again with the self as I talked about, and then look at how it plays out in a partner relationship. It can be very gendered obviously, as we know, you know, the way money has shown up . What power it exhibits, what is my role in that? What am I doing with that? And is it where I want it to be? Okay. I'm not saying there's a right way. There's not, this is how it should look, because that would mean there's one truth and that's just not true. Right.
[00:26:54] It's to look that there's multiple truths, there's shared realities and how am I getting to [00:27:00] the best of what that means with each of the relationships that I'm in?
[00:27:03] I have to look at how I'm also influenced in my little pocket of the world too. You know, I think that, as United States, Americans, gotta speak for that, and even just to keep it to the Northwest, the way we express power and money is very much about what we're showing other people were capable of. Okay. And I don't know that's enough authentic reflection of self. That might not matter to you. And that's fine. Not a place to go with it, but I would ask you then, are you in relationship with your money in a way that you are having, what do I want to say? Like the connected experience. Okay. So that it feels fulfilling in this way, how [00:27:45] everything else in your life wants to show up? Are you authentically coming to this relationship? Would you talk about it differently if you were allowed to? And it's true, if there's moments there, then there's tons of self-help books at the local bookstore that a gentle way to enter this conversation.
[00:28:02] There's your relationship with your investment advisor to talk about. That's a person who's had multiple exposures, you know, all different kinds of personalities, right? And their observations. There's a book that we talked about earlier, Psychology of Money, I think is well-written.
[00:28:17] Rick Thomas: [00:28:17] By Morgan Housel, very good.
[00:28:19] Yolanda Christianson: [00:28:19] By Morgan Housel, yeah. And there's a lot of people involved in coaching relationships. Excellent place to be talking about how all the things were learning in that, showing up in my money [00:28:30] relationship, you know, and then, you know, I might argue for the therapist because at the heart of it, at the heart of all our behaviors is a response to emotional security and I I'm going to leave it at that. That's the thing to be explored.
[00:28:46] Rick Thomas: [00:28:46] Yeah, well that, that is a beautiful place to stop at least for now and put a bow on this .
[00:28:53] Yolanda, if, if somebody's watching or listening to this podcast were compelled to want to reach out to you directly. How would they reach out to you?
[00:29:04] Oh, absolutely. I love it. My email is the best yolanda@yolandachristianson.com and that's a Christianson with an o or an E?
[00:29:13] Yolanda Christianson: [00:29:13] I'm gonna spell the whole thing. [00:29:15] It's Y O L a N D a and then Christianson is C H R I S T I A N S O N Yolanda christianson.com. Perfect. Love to hear from you.
[00:29:27] Rick Thomas: [00:29:27] Perfect. All righty. We have barely dip the toe in this pond.
[00:29:32] Yolanda Christianson: [00:29:32] Exactly
[00:29:34] Rick Thomas: [00:29:34] my guess. There's a, I'm going to want to follow up on this at some point and and we'll take another swing at it, but until then, this has been phenomenal. Thank you.
[00:29:45] Yolanda Christianson: [00:29:45] Thanks for having me,
[00:29:46]Rick Thomas: [00:29:46] Again, for the rest of you listening or watching this podcast you know how to get ahold of Yolanda. If you want to get ahold of me for any reason my information will be in the script below.
[00:30:00] [00:29:59] Until then, be well. And we'll see you again
